Is $7 Billion in Hotel Points a Problem?

On this week’s Good Morning Hospitality, A Skift Podcast: Hotels Edition, Sarah Dandashy and Steve Turk break down the growing loyalty balance at Marriott Hotels and Hilton, and what nearly $7 billion in outstanding points really means for the industry. Is it a liability or one of the most powerful tools in hospitality?

They also cover the race to expand midscale brands, Delta Air Lines raising bag fees as costs rise, and Wyndham Hotels & Resorts passing 100 hotels in Mexico as growth shifts toward value-driven markets.

This episode is brought to you by Vrbo.

Watch This Episode

So all right, today we are diving into a pretty wild stat. Marriott and Hilton own nearly $7 billion in loyalty points to travelers.

So we’re asking, is this actually a problem or one of the most powerful tools of hospitality? We’ll also get into the race to grow mid-scale brands, Delta Raising Bag Fees, Tsk, Tsk, Wyndham’s expansion into Mexico.

And we’re trying a new game, by the way, that might just might expose how confusing hotel brands really have become. So let’s get into it. You ready, Steve?

Good morning.

Good morning, Sarah. How you doing?

You know, just still waking up, waking up to the face.

Yeah, you’re waking up. You’re in a new place. Where are you today?

I am, well, I’m in Los Angeles today.

Man, you’re all over the place.

Los Angeles today, back to Las Vegas, and then, hey, where are you going next week?

Next week, guys, you are going to want to tune in next week because we’re gonna be together in person.

Yes, we are in Miami, Florida. Oh, my God, I’ve never been to, which I’m excited to go. So a giant conference, the conference for cruises and learning about everything that’s going on.

And I’m really excited. I see a lot of cool stuff going there. But Sarah, I know you’re a veteran of doing it and you convinced me to go.

What am I gonna be seeing when I go?

It’s really awesome. I think especially because we’re hoteliers, so we’re used to that whole scene, but to see what’s going on in the whole cruise industry, they’re very forward thinking, the things that they’re able to create and make happen.

I mean, this is really the heartbeat of it all. So you can find out what are the new trends, like what’s been working, and everybody who’s anybody in cruising is there. I’m actually gonna be speaking on Wednesday after our show.

So I’ll be on a panel talking about, get this, what I’m an expert in, but AI and the future of the cruise industry. So it’s gonna be an interesting panel, that’s for sure.

I’ll be there for sure. I’m excited to be there next week. All different things going on, opening parties.

So if you’re gonna be at Sea Trade, let us know here in the comments. Would love to see you there and say hello. And then if we don’t do it in my office, I’m gonna try to see maybe we could do it somewhere on the beach too.

I’m gonna ask around a little bit, but we’ll see.

Wait, what?

Yeah, like maybe there’s like, maybe we could do Lowe’s at Miami Beach. If you’re watching, they’re doing some big press conference there for some people. Who knows?

Maybe we could do something.

I think it’d be fun. I would, I, that would be awesome. Wait, I’m taking a look here at our show notes.

We can do a little sponsor shout out.

Oh my gosh. Can I just say something and you can tell it who the sponsor is? Guys, we’ve been doing this for how long now, Sarah?

How many years? Four? Three.

Three years. Now we’ve got a big sponsor joining our show this month, and we’re very excited to have them. We’re big time now, Sarah.

Who do we got?

Big time. We’ve got Vrbo.

That’s right. Thank you, Vrbo, for sponsoring the show. Listeners and viewers, take the time.

If you’re not ever used Vrbo, go check out their website, vrbo.com. They’ve got some great things. If you do backslash Good Morning, you’ll get access to some great giveaways and specials that they have there for us.

And I’ll double check what we have and we’ll say at the end of the show. But I know go to vrbo.com/goodmorning. It’ll be great to have you guys check them out.

Yeah, they are our sponsor for the month of April.

So thank you so much to VRBO. And yeah, check them out for sure. I’ve actually had several clients that have booked with them.

So that’s always cool.

And we list all our properties on VRBO for a tangy that I manage. So really great things there. We love their support and we appreciate you being here.

And you get the OneKeyCash rewards for eligible properties listed on that link. And I have some that are listed on there as well. So we’ll be great.

Ooh, love it when it’s a full circle moment.

4:54

Host Updates

So wait, before we get into our stories, how’s your week been? I miss you.

I know, it’s crazy. There’s a lot going on. I’ve been getting a lot of stuff going for my hotel that we’re building by.

It’s been a big thing. We’re gonna do groundbreaking in two weeks. So that’s been all focused on that.

So we’ll have some things come out for that. I’ll talk about. And then really just checking out all these cool landscape hotels.

I went down to the Everglades National Park all the way to the end and checked out their glamping setup that they have out there. And the only restaurant in the Everglades Park, which is run by Guest Services Inc. And they’re a big company.

There’s a lot of the hotels in the national parks. And it was really cool to see sold out people in these tents in the middle of the Everglades. Very cool.

That’s wild.

Did it help kind of give some inspiration as far as?

Yeah, I’m not a roughing it kind of guy. I need air condition and bathroom and luxury linens, not just the tent.

Yeah.

I need, where’s the spa? Where’s my restaurant? That’s going to be it.

I’m one of those too.

That’s what I’m building.

So what about you? Where have you been?

Well, I was in, oh my gosh, this is going to be hilarious. I was in Las Vegas and I had a friend join me who insisted on going to the show Magic Mike.

And so, she did.

But it was very interesting because they like tried to weave in for anybody that doesn’t know what Magic Mike is. There was a movie that had Channing Tatum in it and then they made it a show on the strip.

And my guess is they probably are constantly trying to like evolve the storyline. And it’s like, they had a female host and all of this. They did have some actually professional dancers that were like Cirque du Soleil.

There was like a Cirque du Soleil moment in the middle of it that I was like, All right.

Is this what people came for?

It’s all good. But it just was fascinating because it made me think about, and by the way, this would go to any of the shows on the strip. People are probably just like constantly, they’re constantly kind of like reinventing these shows.

They can’t keep it stale. They can’t keep it the same way.

A lot of competition.

Totally. I thought that that was kind of interesting, that I was like, oh, interesting angle. But was looking around, everybody seemed to enjoy themselves.

I couldn’t wait to get out of there. But, you know.

I like it. He goes, hmm, I think Sarah’s friend was Sarah.

No, Paul. Oh, Paul. Oh my God.

It’s all right, Sarah.

It’s all good. Well, I’m glad you enjoyed the Magic Mike Show. I’m sure it was fantastic.

We survived it.

Let’s put it like that.

You enjoyed it very much. Listen, again, shout out to VRBO. Verbo, love you, sponsor and our show.

I think we get into the news. What do you think?

Yeah. I like this one.

7:56

Loyalty Points

This is an interesting topic I covered on the Skift Daily Briefing. But the $7 billion loyalty IOU problem and arguably power move. This is interesting.

Marriott and Hilton own nearly $7 billion in unredeemed loyalty points. Just across the industry, the number exceeds $11 billion, which is wild, but it also makes sense. And so it’s interesting because of how hotels kind of treat this.

So it’s not like traditional debt, but it’s sort of like that promise, that future demand. So I thought it was an interesting breakdown.

It’s very cool. And the article breaks it down. I even had to reread it a couple of times to understand all the different things and how it works.

But for us to understand, basically, if you have those co-branded credit cards that you like to get points on, every time you swipe a Marriott American Express card, American Express pays Marriott points based on those points that you just spent.

And they collect that. And they hold on to it. And then as guests, it’s up to us to use our Bonvoy app to then check in and use our points.

But a lot of those points don’t get used. And so this has become a giant, really future revenue that these hotels are holding on to. So Marriott said, look, man, we had a $436 million gap that people didn’t use their points last year.

So it then just becomes free money for people using these things. And so the hotel then can then say, hey, big bank, I’m going to JP Morgan. I’ve got, you know, $7 billion sitting here on my balance sheet.

And I want to take a loan against it. And so all of a sudden, this becomes very, very valuable. And then I was running some ideas, you know, through Chat TV, like, how can this go bad?

It’s really if the economy tanks and people still want to travel, but they’re not swiping those credit cards is when things get in, could be trouble for these hotels. But then they could just raise the amount of points.

So if a room costs, you know, 20,000 points today, they say, oh, it’s 50,000 points now to get the same room. So they have ways to protect themselves.

So it’s really interesting to see how hotels are selling future reservations without having to risk anything.

That’s interesting. Cody just chimed in. Cody Brown, hotels need to go back to $80 a night instead of $250 a night.

Well, I guess that would depend on the market. There are some markets that are, they would be a dream if they were 250 a night. It would be a dream if you could find a hotel in Los Angeles for 250 a night, even parts of Miami, right?

Yeah, I mean, you can find some.

I may not stay in those. It’s a little rough. But that’s where some of those, you know, VRBO came in good for that because you can find some good deals in some apartments and different things there.

Yeah.

But what’s cool to see is like, you know, I’m testing this out now too on a much smaller level.

We’re selling future reservations for our project. And we’re seeing amazing to see how many people are reserving ahead of time to get a discount on their room. But we’re treating that like, hey, we collect this money.

But now once they check in, we have to use that money to pay housekeepers and engineers and front desk and all the people that will be there. So it’s an interesting balancing act. But it’s really a way to make money without risking too much.

And then it’s like a gym membership, right? Like they bank on people not going to the gym and making sure that they collect that monthly revenue.

Exactly. It’s interesting. I mean, and it’s so funny because I always have so many people ask me about like, oh, should I use my points for this?

I was like, you should just use your points because they’re constantly decreasing in value. And it’s like never sit on points. In fact, I’m going to be staying in Miami on points.

And I was like, oh, I’m using so many. And then I’m like, but like, that’s what it’s for. Yeah, exactly.

I’m curious for listeners and viewers now, if you have unused points, just say yes or no, because I’m just curious to see, because the number I think will get bigger and bigger, the more that people continue to use these co-branded credit cards.

We talked about it a couple of weeks ago, how much money, I think, what was it?

Marriott said they had, just for signing with the credit card company, it was 30 million or something, or 300, forget the number exactly, but it’s just giant numbers, and it’s very valuable to all these companies that people swipe those cards.

And I think this is interestingly timed, because obviously we’re talking about this in the hotel industry, but it certainly applies to others.

And I just saw earlier this week, Delta CEO Ed Bastion, I think he was doing an interview, maybe it was like for Fortune magazine or something, but he was actually talking about the loyalty and the credit cards.

And at the beginning, they were a little bit trying to figure out, okay, whose customer is it when it comes to the credit cards, which I found kind of fascinating. And then they finally came and had a discussion. They’re both of ours.

And if we just don’t be like, oh, that’s yours, or that’s kind of pushing people off and work together, it’s like, there’s just going to be, let’s just focus on creating a bigger pie. And everybody ends up winning. And that’s what they did.

And that is really what kind of changed how successful their loyalty program was and has been. And it’s, I mean, it’s definitely, it’s huge. So I thought that was interesting.

The one thing I would just be looking at it here is the breakage factor.

So breakage saying that points go unused, right? So it’s kind of like when we buy a gift card, right? You know, I bought a gift card for someone, for Lululemon, they, for 100 bucks, but they only use 80 of it.

Lululemon just profited that 20 bucks. And so they’re seeing more and more and more of that. But then you lose that customer because it’s like, all right, well, they never came back, technically.

Yeah.

It’s just interesting to see how valuable these points and credit cards have become.

It’s super interesting.

So, yeah, I mean, I guess like the the final takeaway with this is hotels don’t see loyalty points as debt. They see them as demand pretty much and revenue in their pocket.

They have it. It’s been paid. Let’s see how we’ll use it.

It’s been paid.

Yeah.

So interesting stuff. Anyway, why don’t we go on and continue our stories for today?

14:04

Industry Trends

If you are good with that.

I’m ready. Let’s do it.

We have an exciting end to today’s show. So, mid-scale growth war, Marriott, Hyatt, IHG, they’re all, all of these major hotel groups are expanding mid-scale brands aggressively.

They’re kind of focusing on smaller markets, lower costs to development. And it’s really this, they’re finding that mid-scale is really a big part of the growth engine.

Yeah, it’s getting big. Yeah, they’re growing. They want to do it in an interesting way too.

They’re using it to really develop across Europe, Africa and the Middle East, these brands where they’re seeing a lot of growth in this mid-scale market.

And Felicity Black-Roberts, Hyatt’s Senior Vice President said, we’re focused on building a portfolio that serves real guest demand in this region. And they’re putting properties all over the place and they’re converting these properties.

So they’re existing properties that may be not be performing that well. They’re convincing them to join their brand and converting them from a stand-alone into a Hyatt or a stand-alone into a Marriott.

So it’s a really good way for people now with things getting so expensive to build, to start building your properties in these areas.

Yeah. I think we’ve talked so much about luxury, and it’s obviously the success of luxury. But I appreciate that they’re really understanding the mid-scale properties because that is certainly a huge part of the segment.

Traveler styles have changed. So yeah.

There’s so many brands. I’m excited for the part of our show at the end because there’s so many brands I just haven’t heard of in a lot of these places. They’re making a big push in.

So Marriott is doing City Express, Four Points, Flex, Studio Res and Series. Then you have a couple other brands that I just haven’t heard of yet, but they’re growing in China and the Middle East. Your Cove by Hyatt, I haven’t heard of.

So all these brands they’re mentioning in this mid-scale, Low Staff, Clean Room, maybe a Free Breakfast to get you in there and make sure you have a nice place to stay, but also being able to grow your inventory for the big brands, how you continue

to grow and continue to make those brands get into this mid-scale that’s been needing help because we’ve talked about it a hundred times. The luxury continues to pump and do really well.

So how do you fill in that mid-scale for people that still want to travel, but at the right price point?

Totally, and I mean, it just makes sense just for the climate of today.

You know, it’s kind of like a safer bet and you need options for a lot of individuals, you know, that are not necessarily looking for the high-end luxury properties or price point.

Well, you have to travel to these properties, right? So how do you get there? We got our next story, I think would be a good one to share right now.

Yeah, definitely.

This is your company.

I always say you work here. So let me see what you have to say about this.

Delta, they have raised their bag fees. This is, I mean, we’ve seen a lot of different companies have done this recently, but they’ve increased their check bag fees.

And basically, I mean, their justification is to kind of help offset the jet fuel costs. Because as everybody knows what’s going on in the world, that is an issue. But a lot of airlines have been continually leaning into ancillary revenue.

But of course, like travelers are feeling the cost. I mean, it doesn’t bother me because I have, I’ve got status, so I never pay for bags. So I’m part of that crowd.

But I mean, it makes sense. Look, I mean, the cost of the world is going up. But how can people be surprised?

Yeah, you can look.

And last week, they weren’t the only ones, United Airlines did it. JetBlue both announced that they would increase their baggage fees. And they said the average jet fuel price as of today is $4.69 a gallon.

So, like United CEO Scott Kirby was saying that it expects fares to increase by 20% right now. Yeah. They’re forecasting oil prices to hit a peak of $175 a barrel and stay there for a while.

So they’re starting to see that this is going to be the new norm. I guess we put this in hotel context. It’s like when you raise your, you know, resort fee, $1 or $2, right?

This is how you cover things without raising hotel prices. And it’s going to be interesting because, you know, when people search, it’s another part of the search. They’re searching for how much that flight will be.

It doesn’t include the baggage fee till you check out, right? So this is the way to keep your prices competitive with everybody else as you’re searching for where you want to fly. Then they’ll hit you at the end with your baggage fee.

Yeah, I don’t know.

It doesn’t like get me riled up like it might get other people riled up. But I’m also looking at the bigger picture and grateful that we have jet fuel. Yeah, because there are some countries that are going to be like really having to there.

I mean, we were seeing some countries have to actually cut flights. So I know it kind of takes us out of our little insulated American US bubble for a moment. But you know, that’s kind of I mean, that’s just the world that we’re living in right now.

And prices are going up and it’s like, just be grateful that you can get a flight.

Someone mentioned, we’ll ask, will prices come down? We’ve been doing the show for a while now. And every time a price goes up, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it come back down, right?

Once that fee becomes the new normal, that’s the baggage fee. Once that resort fee becomes that resort fee, that’s what it is.

It’s very rare that I’ve heard hotels or cruise ships or airlines lower those back down unless some competitors force them to because they’re doing things differently. So, let’s see what happens out there.

Yeah, I mean, you know, there’s just hard to say, like, as far as, like, will prices come down? As you mentioned, I don’t think the bag prices will come down.

That’s not, but, like, just in general, I think just maybe we can just talk about, like, when will things kind of even out, considering the huge disruption that is happening right now? And I think it’s for what was I read a little bit ago.

It’s, like, for every day of, I will just call it disruption, it will take up to two weeks to kind of get back. And so, yeah.

Two years.

A lot of days. A lot of weeks.

It’s going to take us a while to bounce back. But, you know, they say demand is still strong. And they’re saying they haven’t seen it slow down, especially, again, in their luxury tier, the CEO of Delta is saying.

So people continue to fly. They haven’t been scared off yet. They still have to get places, do business, go to family events.

Like I’m flying this weekend, a short flight to Savannah, but before, then I’ll be flying over to Utah the week after. So I’ll keep an eye on what’s going on. I’ll be a hover.

I’ll see live from the airports.

You’ll see live. Yeah. Prices are, they’re going up and things are smoothing out at airports as well.

So, you know, maybe that might be business more like usual, but we’ll see. Why don’t we move on to our next topic here?

Yep. People continue to travel.

Yeah. People are continuing to travel. That’s for sure.

Wyndham is passing their 100th hotel in Mexico. They have surpassed 100 hotels in Mexico and shocker here because it goes on what we were just talking about, growth driven by mid-scale and value segments.

So Mexico is still remaining a kind of a key expansion market. When was the last time you were in Mexico?

It has been a long time since I’ve been in Mexico. I think I went to Cabo like in 2008 and that was the last time I was there. Maybe it was on, yeah, I think that’s probably, maybe Cozumel or Cruz like 2010.

Oh my gosh, you’re hurting my soul.

It’s great though.

Yeah, so yeah, I mean, I need to go. Yeah, definitely.

You’re saying they’ve got so many, again, brands that I’ve never heard of with Alzan with 1300 rooms, the Bel Air with 700 rooms, Optima, Grupo Ola, Fibra Hotel, Fibra Inn. So they’re growing with a lot of different brands, not just major resorts.

So a lot of different properties that they’re expanding with. So Wyndham does a good job, especially in that mid-tier, where they get people going.

Yeah, definitely. And again, like it just sort of makes sense when Mexico is an easy vacation spot for a lot of Americans. You’ve got a lot of Canadians that are going there.

I think I last, whenever I was in Cabo a couple of weeks ago, I had mentioned how I met Canadians when I was there. So yeah, I mean, they’ve got a growing market. They make it easy to get in and out.

The airports are smooth. It’s not an issue. And they’re definitely, like, they’re in the business of making sure people stay happy and have a vacation.

And you were there during some cartel wars too.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I told you, on the ground. That’s me.

On the ground and in the air reporting from Steve Turk, I’ll be live.

I love it.

I mean, but again, it’s honestly, it’s just kind of like a reminder.

It’s so interesting to see, like, kind of what what we end up hearing versus, like, what things are actually like when you’re there on the ground.

So true.

We expect the real deal from you. OK, wait, are we ready for this?

23:40

Brand Challenge

I’m actually kind of nervous for this final segment. All right. Is everybody?

We should make a bet.

Why don’t we tell them what the segment is, Sarah? OK, everyone can participate.

We are going to do a new segment for today. Drum roll. That was my…

Oh, thank you.

Oh, bongos.

Wow, that was a whole thing. I felt my hips shaking. Call me Shakira.

Anyway.

She’s like, what do you do? Thanks.

Thanks for playing along, Steve. Whose brand is it anyway? So we are going to do a little something a little new today called Whose Brand Is It Anyway?

Where we’re going to show a hotel logo. It’s a soft brand. OK.

And then we’ll have to figure out who that are we going to figure out who the parent company is?

The parent brand is, yeah. So we’ll start with the brand and we have to guess if it’s a Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, Wyndham, IHG. We’ll have to figure it out.

And all of you can play along to that are watching here live. That’s the benefit. You get to play along with us if you’re watching live and not hearing on the record.

So let’s see. I guess we put it up, right?

Yeah.

But wait, wait, wait.

Hold on.

Hold on.

Before you put that up, what are we going to try and see who would should we ask everybody who they think is going to win?

Well, it’s going to be me, so.

Wow, we got somebody sassy this morning.

No, I don’t know. I don’t think either of us are going to. Let’s see.

All right, let’s put this on the screen. We’ll give the viewers and listeners, what do we say, 15 seconds, and then we’ll answer.

Yeah.

All right, well, let’s see. So this is the Vignette Collection. Vignette Collection.

When do we go?

When do we go? When do we say?

We got five more seconds. Hold on. Let our viewers and listeners put their guesses in, Sarah.

So what is the parent brand of this?

Everybody’s participating.

Everyone’s participating. All right. Should we write it down or should we just say it out loud?

Maybe we say it out loud.

Yeah, we’ll say it out loud. Okay. Three.

Go first.

You got it.

Hilton.

Vignette Collection. Hilton. I’m going to go with Accor.

Who was it?

Andrew chimed in with IHG, by the way. Oh, what do we got? What do we got?

I’m nervous.

I’m nervous. All right. Who is it, Will?

IHG.

Oh, we got an insider on Andrew, I think.

Vignette Collection, IHG. Let’s pull up the website and put it up here. I would love to see Vignette Collection and what they’ve got going on.

We’re double checking our answers.

It is IHG.

And look at this, a collection with a difference, with people at the center of every experience. All right, very nice. They got Yel in Dubai, Marina.

Fairview Hotel Nairobi. Looks very nice. Palm Springs Hotel Chengdu.

Some nice, beautiful properties. The one Shanghai downtown. Very, very nice.

There it is. Vignette Collection.

There we go.

I like this. We got to do this more often because I had no idea that that’s correct. But it is in their luxury tier.

And he has an interesting point.

He’s like, if people in the industry don’t know how we do like know this, how can we expect guests to know it?

Yep. It’s hard. It’s hard.

But also we were talking about it last week, too, was that it doesn’t really matter if people know the parent company, as long as they find something that they’re emotionally connected to or they like that brand. Correct.

We do have a lot of work to do because there’s so many brands and so many places. But Andrew, you’re right. Thank you for playing along, everybody.

The Vignette Collection, IHG. I’m excited for next week. I like this.

Oh, my gosh.

So yeah, that was hard.

Yeah, it was. But we’re going to start getting some prizes for people if they get it right. We’re going to figure something out.

I love that.

Yeah.

I love that.

That’s wild.

Well, real-time recap, what do you think? What should we do?

Yeah, quick real-time, the real-time recap. I can’t talk today. I haven’t, my coffee hasn’t kicked in.

Why don’t you go ahead and start first?

Real-time recap, we always look for new viewers. This is where we look for great hospitality on the streets, in the real world. Doesn’t have to be a hospitality place, but sometimes it can be.

And I want to give a shout out to a new coffee shop that opened up here in my neighborhood called Routina Coffee.

I went in there and they’ve now, I’ve been there a couple of times, they’ve now learned my name, they know what I like to drink, and they’re making suggestions now of things I should try.

And so it always feels good, like all of a sudden, I don’t know how many reps it takes, but when you become a loyal guest to somewhere, it always feels good when they remember you and who you are and things like that.

And your order.

And your order, and like, hey, you should try something out, do you like this? Here’s a free taste, right? Those are the kind of things now, it’s a pricey cup of coffee, but I will continue to go back for those things.

I’m actually looking forward to go in today. So those are the things I look for, and shout out to Rutina Coffee in downtown Miami.

I love that. I’m trying to see my little real time recap. I ended up, oh, there was one of my favorite sushi restaurants in Las Vegas I went to, that actually went there over a year ago and came in.

And again, it’s a simple reminder, it’s a restaurant. I haven’t been there in many, many months, and they remembered me and who I was. And it was just nice.

And I got to go in with my friend Gigi, who she always has a very unusual order. So, but they were super accommodating with that. And again, the simple things of, you like to go back to places that you feel welcomed and remembered.

That’s so simple, but…

That’s a matter of matters, a little big thanks.

Definitely.

We had a great show here. And as always, listeners and viewers, we shared some fun things, especially our new Whose Brand Is It Anyway segment.

That was pretty fun.

Get some more people to play with us. Why don’t you pause this, go share the episode with them. And again, as I always say, if you have not subscribed yet, what are you waiting for?

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